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Are boys seen as ‘a problem’ before they are even born?

July 8, 2014 by Inside MAN 16 Comments

Photo courtesy: sdminor81

“The man on the Clapham Omnibus” is a phrase that’s used to refer to the hypothetical reasonable person, the individual whose views represent those of the average man or woman on the street. It’s shorthand for the voice of public opinion.

If that’s the case, it seems to me that a conversation I recently witnessed while sitting on a London bus (though it must be said, not one going to Clapham, or between two men), has alarming implications for society’s attitudes to boys.

Opposite me was a heavily pregnant mother, who looked to be in her early 30s, sitting next to her was her son, who I’d say was about seven or eight years old.

Beside me was an older woman, perhaps in her 50’s. The two women were chatting away about this and that, the little boy sitting quietly, occasionally gently touching his mum’s heavily pregnant stomach.

‘Girls are nice, sugar and spice’

After a lull in the conversation, the older woman turned to the little boy and said: “Would you like a brother or sister?”

Without hesitating, the boy replied confidently: “A sister.”

The woman replied: “Girls are nice,” then rubbing her eyes mockingly, “boys cry all the time, bleuurgh!” before adding: “Girls are nice, sugar and spice.”

The mother agreed, telling her friend: “You’re right, too.”

Simply common sense?

The older woman then turned to the little boy again and said: “But I’m sure if you have a little brother, you’d like him too.”

The boy sat quietly as the two women began chatting again about work.

As I listened to the exchange, and watched the little boy quietly absorbing it, I wondered what impact this must have had on him?

The conversation between the mother and her friend was so casual — as if they were simply discussing a matter of common sense – that it seemed reasonable to suppose it wouldn’t have been the first or the last time he’d heard the sentiment.

Thought experiment

How would he process this constant drip-drip of the idea that his “boyness” was somehow inferior and something to be ashamed of?

I also tried to turn the conversation on its head, to re-run it as if it were a father and his friend discussing an unborn daughter.

I was struck by my own reaction to this thought experiment — the idea of two men openly discussing in front of their daughter how unpleasant girls are, was immediately offensive.

In contrast the women clearly felt their conversation was one that was perfectly acceptable to have in public, something you wouldn’t expect anyone to disagree with.

Deeper significance

It can be a dangerous game to cherry-pick overheard conversations and use them as evidence of deeper cultural undercurrents, but at the same time, there are things that people simply do not say openly because they realise the condemnation they’d open themselves up to.

And the fact that the “What are little boys made of?” nursery rhyme is both so long-standing and trips so easily off the tongue, suggests that their conversation does have a deeper significance.

There are also high-profile mothers who have been happy to publicly express disdain for their unborn sons.

In 2012, Esther Walker wrote in the Daily Mail about her grave disappointment on learning she was to have a baby boy.

‘Boring, selfish men’

She wrote: “Please don’t condemn me. I know very little about boys, coming from a family of all girls, but what I have seen I really haven’t liked. Boys are gross; they attack their siblings with sticks, are obsessed with toilets, casually murder local wildlife and turn into disgusting teenage boys and then boring, selfish men.”

Then in June of this year, Z-list celebrity Josie Cunningham said she kept on drinking and smoking heavily during her pregnancy, because she found out her baby was to be a boy — comparing having a boy with driving a Ford, while having a girl was like owning an Audi.

Without doubt, there’s a huge element of prurience and deliberate provocation to both of these stories, but it’s hard to imagine any male columnist writing about his disdain at the thought of having a daughter, and neither story triggered any particular outrage as examples of ingrained sexism, which they surely would have done had the genders been reversed.

It goes without saying that the vast majority of parents are thrilled with their pregnancy and new-born child – regardless of gender.

And neither is it unusual or reprehensible to have a quiet fondness to complete a family with a baby of the opposite gender of the one already born, or for a father or mother to hanker after a baby of their own sex to share their own gendered experiences with.

But what’s disturbing is the openness of the disdain expressed in each of these examples — the fact that it seems somehow more publicly acceptable to feel and think this way about boys.

The most dangerous prejudices are the ones that go un-challenged.

If boys are already expected to be “a problem” before they are even born, how will this affect the way they are treated by parents and teachers as they grow up?

By Dan Bell

What do you think? Are there unchallenged and unrecognised prejudices against boys? Does society expect less of boys than girls? Does this have an impact on how boys see themselves? Tell us what you think in a comment or a tweet.

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Filed Under: Men’s Insights, Men’s Issues, Uncategorized Tagged With: boys, boys development, boys education, Esther Walker, Josie Cunningham, sexism against men

  • Inside MAN

    Comment from a mum on facebook:

    Having just had a son, this was really interesting. Upon learning I was have a boy when still pregnant, I was informed about a whole load of ‘challenges’ to come, from the physical ‘you’ll get weed on you know, all the time!’, to discussion around so called inherent male traits ‘that’s it, you’ll never sit down again, your house will be filthy, boys are like puppies, they never stop, get ready for you son to turn anything he can into a gun or a sword, even if you don’t buy them!’.

    Nobody said anything much when I said I was having a girl the first time round, other than ahhh, here’s a pink and frilly gift. Sorry, rambling, but in conclusion I am very happy with both my children and wouldn’t swap them for the world. And for the record, I’ve been weed on my both of them! x ps hi! Xx

    • Inside MAN

      Hi, thanks for commenting. Really glad you found the post interesting and thanks very much for sharing your experiences.

      Would you be interested in writing a short piece for us expanding on what you’ve said? As a mother of a boy and a girl, describing your observations of the different assumptions/narratives you came across about them?

      All the best, Dan

    • Inside MAN

      SOME MORE COMMENTS FROM MUM’S ON FACEBOOK:

      “I think girls and boys are equally problematic to raise. It’s just that the challenges are different, that’s all.”

      “I found alternative words to that “What are are little girls made of?” nursery rhyme as my little boy, then aged 3 said it wasn’t nice and made him feel bad. How perceptive.”

      “I’ve always thought how dreadful that nursery rhyme is. I have a daughter and two sons. They have all brought various challenges to me but equally brought blessings individually too.”

  • CitymanMichael

    I think the author has made the point that society is inherently sexist against males – where sexism is considered by society as against females.
    The other point covered is the views of teachers – the vast majority females & this is something which government needs to help change.

    • Inside MAN

      Hi CitymanMichael,

      Thanks for the comment. Yes, we plan to explore the impact of teachers’ assumptions about boys behaviour in future articles.

      What else do you think we should be covering?

      Best wishes, Dan

  • Y Stewart

    You’re generalising and cherry-picking. I’ve got five kids: 3 boys and 2 girls. Pre-birth I heard as many negatives about girls as I did about boys. ‘Girls scream; are hysterical; get over-excited; are bitchy; are a nightmare at puberty; are more selfish’ and ‘boys are forever turning sticks into guns; won’t help in the house; are dirty and messy; and you’ll lose them when they get a girlfriend’. What utter claptrap. All of it. Three of my five are young adults now and they are different simply because they are different people with distinct personalities. My eldest – female – is messy, sometimes her personal hygiene is a bit suspect and she is hyper-independent. My middle – male – is gentle caring loving clean etc. We can all take negatives about either sex from random comments made by the man or woman on the bus – the trick I suppose is to remember: our children become in large part the adults we show them how to be.

    • Inside MAN

      Hi Y Stewart, thanks for taking the time to comment.

      Agreed, all of these expectations and presumptions are generalizations — none of which are particularly healthy or accurate.

      The post was highlighting one aspect of this dynamic from the perspective of boys, as this is the focus of our work. But it certainly wasn’t intended to deny that there are also damaging and wrong-headed presumptions made about girls.

      As you describe from your own experiences, the presumptions made about boys and girls behaviour often have little to do with reality.

      Best wishes, Dan

    • Darren Ball

      Hi Y Stewart

      I completely agree that girls also receive negative conditioning. For instance, they might be complemented on how they look (lovely little princess, etc.) more than by what they’ve achieved (in some families, at least).

      Your post really agrees with the article insofar as you’re agreeing that there are pre-conceived negative ideas about children based on their sex: some of these affect boys and others affect girls. I think it’s good to challenge all of these, but this article was specifically about one that affects boys. There is generally much less talk about the way sexism negatively impacts on boys and so it’s reasonable to focus on that here.

      • Y Stewart

        True. Regardless of the gender referred to, stereotyping sexist descriptors are damaging and limiting. I’m sorry if I came across as overly critical. We’re on the same page.

        • Darren Ball

          No, I don’t think you didn’t come across as overly critical. I think it’s good to show balance.

          Best

  • Darren Ball

    I wonder if the message given to boys is that they should be magnanimous around the “fairer” sex? A gentleman does not compete with women and is happy to be a foil for their jokes, etc.? I think this sort of thinking is as old as the moon. Traditionally the boy would also be internalising that men were in charge of absolutely everything, from running the country to being head of their households, so what’s the problem if there’s some light-hearted ribbing along the way?

    The underlying assumptions about this sort of thinking were ultimately sexist towards women and girls because nobody seriously believed it – it was all patronising non-sense and suggested that girls cannot compete with boys (and women with men) on equal terms.

    Nowadays women are selecting from a continuum of choice in terms of work-life balance. They’re making their own life style decision and, to a large extent, men are fitting in around their partner’s choices. Men and boys are relatively failing in education and men comprise around 90 per cent of those in the lowest tiers of our society. Against this background, we cannot take for granted that boys will internalise this “ribbing” as anything other than fact – masculinity is a human defect and that’s why men and boys are shit at everything.

    • Inside MAN

      Hi Darren,

      Thanks for joining the conversation. Just to concur with your final point — yes, I think this is an important question. To what extent are boys internalising the negative messages about masculinity they are surrounded by?

      Best wishes, Dan

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  • Sharon Poderson

    I think the underlying problem is our lack of understanding of the opposite sex. As a mother of a daughter first, I found her a joy to bring up, I still do love her company. I felt I understood her instinctively as a female and related to her in many ways. I’ve found my son (now 9) incredibly hard to parent. A lot of this may be down to my very negative male role models (violence, abandonment and abuse as a child/teen) and therefore my lack of understanding of the ‘male’ psyche. You could just say a child is a child, regardless of sex but my daughter never had any of the issues my son has. I relate to the ‘guns’ issue someone else mentioned. Everything is a gun! My son is hyper, immature, noisy, demanding, needy etc. Yes he can also be loving too but I am being honest in saying that I don’t feel I really understand him or relate to him most of the time. I feel like a failure as a mother to him. I worry he will grow up with a negative self-image. I feel like I’ve needed ‘help’ with him for 9 years but never known where to ask – so this brings me back round to where I started. I don’t feel like I understand my son – and maybe this is the same for many women?

InsideMAN is committed to pioneering conversations about men, manhood and masculinity that make a difference. We aim to create spaces where the voices of men, from many different backgrounds, can be heard. It’s time to have a new conversation about men. We'd love you to be a part of it.

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