Four reasons feminism is alienating teenage boys

November 13, 2014 by Inside MAN 37 Comments

Duncan Fisher wanted to know what teenage boys feel about feminism, so he invited four of his daughter’s male friends to tell him what they think.

—This is article #65 in our series of #100Voices4Men and boys

When I was asked to write one of the articles for the #100Voices4Men series I was chuffed. Then followed two months of absolute mental blankness. I watched with increasing panic as articles were published, reaching closer and closer to the 100 mark!

And then my daughter saved me. She reported that there had been a heated argument in an A-level English class at her school about feminism. A week later, I had four 17 year old boys from the English class sitting round our dining room table at home, and this article is about that conversation.

I wanted to know their perceptions of gender inequality and the debate about feminism.

This is a group of young men keenly aware of the concerns of feminism, with a clear view of how the inequalities of concern to feminism are different in different environments. For example take the case of overt sexism in public places: there is none in the streets of our own small community where anonymity is no option, but in cities it is a different story. Idescribed the harassment my youngest daughter has experienced while out running training in Cardiff and everyone in social media is currently debating the story from New York.

And then there is the internet, where sexualisation of women and girls and sexist trolling are rampant. We discussed their perceptions of equality in education. They see a very high level of equality in UK, but see a very different story in other countries and admire the campaigning of Malala Yousafzi.

They do not arrive at the same conclusion as the young man, Josh O’Brien, in article #27 of this series, who takes an anti-feminist view of gender politics. But despite this keen awareness, interest and concern, they don’t engage in the debate on-line: “we never put our point of view across because there is too much hate”.

So what’s the story?

Four things cause real difficulty for these boys:

1. When men who respect women are held responsible for the activities of men who behave horribly towards women

One of the young men said: “The story is that all men are dicks. We are being asked to sort these men out, but we are not responsible.”

It called to my mind the recent complaint by British Muslims about being held to account for the actions of ISIS, leading to a great joke T-shirt: “I’m a Muslim and I am sorry for everything – in the past, present and future”!

Wagging the finger at all young men and saying “repent!” is an incredibly ineffective recruitment strategy and alienates the men and boys equality work most needs.

2. When there is a lack of empathy for men who suffer

The young men are aware of those areas where men fare worse on average than women – relationships with their children after parental separation, access to mental health services, rates of suicide, death in war. A lack of empathy for these issues sends a dark signal. And in areas where the gender balance goes the other way, such as domestic violence or single parenting, why not open up our support equally to all according to need?

3. When statistics are abused

These young men (and, I am sure, countless young women) know that many of the statistics banded about in social media are false – for example the one that says women earn 23% less than men, presented as if women are paid substantially less than men for the same work in a wide range of jobs. They know it cannot be true, because teachers in their school are paid equally irrespective of gender. But they have no doubt there are pay inequalities, though they don’t have the resources to find out the truth of the matter, which is a painstaking and expert task.

They also know that if they do make any attempt at a contradiction, they will draw fire. So, even if they had all the figures, they have no real appetite for pointless rows. So the only option is to shut up. And so stupid statistics fly around in social media, giving people who want a fight a sense of justification for doing so; they are observed from the sidelines by a large silent majority. Actual solutions, which depend on meticulous analysis of what is actually happening, get pushed into the background.

4. Fundamentalism on the internet

Social media spreads outrageous views far faster than reasoned arguments and the social media these boys see every day is awash with fundamentalist views that brook no contradiction. As the boys pointed out, the video of little girls swearing and spouting ridiculous statistics (we all really hate this video) has gone hugely viral.

One boy said: “it keeps on appearing in my feed as the girls I am friends with share it”, fuelling division between teenage boys and girls. The answer: keep a low profile. If you are targeted on-line, everyone can see. The same goes for large numbers of thoughtful teenage girls who would get fired at just as quickly.

What do young men want?

And so the cause of gender inequality is deprived of its most valuable potential supporters on a grand scale. So I asked the boys, what conditions would have to apply to allow them to feel able to contribute to the debate about equality in the way they would like to?

They said they would need a safe place where they could feel confident they would not be shouted at and publicly humiliated; where their motives were not under immediate suspicion simply on account of their gender. They want protecting against fundamentalism by prominent and leading figures in the campaign for gender equality – people who can defend the sincerity of their interest and allow real discussion. They want to participate with girls and women of like mind.

Let us imagine for one instant what we could do if we could cultivate a strong and confident group of young women and men across the world committed to defending equality and having the tools to do so? A group of people ready to listen to the concerns of the other gender and to campaign together, modelling the kind of partnership between women and men that is predicated by equality?

You can’t have gender equality if you don’t include boys

What if all those watching the row about gender on the internet could also glimpse a place where an active, respectful and sincere campaign for equality was being conducted by women and men together?

This may be a pipe-dream. But let us remember: we will never end sexism and gender inequality without the help of boys and men – this has always been the case and will always be. And the first step is to listen to them without judgement, particularly those who are genuinely concerned and wish to participate.

As the boys left our house, they said how great it was to be able to have a sensible conversation about these things. I was struck that this was the first opportunity they had ever had to discuss gender equality without having to self-censor. That’s a big problem.

—Picture credit: David Shankbone

Duncan Fisher was one of the founders and CEO of the Fatherhood Institute and is currently developing a project called MumsAndDadsNet.

You can find all of the #100Voices4Men articles that will be published in the run up to International Men’s Day 2014 by clicking on this link—#100Voices4Men—and follow the discussion on twitter by searching for #100Voices4Men.

The views expressed in these articles are not the views of insideMAN editorial team. Whether you agree with the views expressed in this article or not we invite you to take take part in this important discussion, our only request is that you express yourself in a way that ensures everyone’s voice can be heard.

You can join the #100Voices4Men discussion by commenting below; by following us on Twitter @insideMANmag and Facebook or by emailing insideMANeditor@gmail.com.

http://zpatriarchy.blogspot.com zodak

“I was struck that this was the first opportunity they had ever had to discuss gender equality without having to self-censor. That’s a big problem.” it’s almost as if, they get attacked by feminists for expressing themselves. despite the claim that feminism is some dictionary definition. this social media feminism is just going to create a bigger backlash.
- Someone
  
  Feminism is out of control. The entire regressive agenda being pushed harder than ever before due to social media makes this the worst time in history to male and/or white.
David Byron

This whole article is anti-male and amounts to a defence of feminism, which is a hate movement. It’s peppered with prejudicial assumptions and hidden sleights against men and boys. The author clearly slanted/primed the discussion with the four boys with feminist propaganda before starting it, and he thinks it was a fair discussion? If it had been a fair discussion the result would have been anti-feminism of course, but they all knew that the pretense of a fair hearing was just that.

Even so the four results described by the feminist author are a fair description of a hate movement, although no doubt the young men didn’t know it. (1) that feminism practices group punishment on men as a birth group (2) that feminism is anti-male and sexist (3) that feminists lie to frame men as evil (4) that the common rank and file feminists endorse and promote the work of the activist “extremists”.

They missed feminism’s segregationist and violent views but on the whole they captured much of the essence of political hate. Not bad for people who have probably never had an opportunity to learn what feminism really is. Especially good considering the slanted nature of the conversation. These young men are grasping intuitively at the truth despite every authority figure in their lives saying the opposite. Very credit worthy.
Flo

FEM-inism is by default exclusive. It’s a club, in which men are not included, but instead accused of being horrible human beings, and that all that they do daily is to oppress women *the myth of the Patriarchy™*
Pingback: “Four reasons feminism is alienating teenage boys” from Inside-Man.co.uk | Men’s Psychology()
Nigel

I suppose my first thought was what an indictment of their school/s. If they have no safe space to debate!!
The second was an observation made by Michael Kaufman about his work with students. That people like him had to engage with boys experiences of harassment and double standards or else they would be seen as “telling lies” . This from an avowed feminist.
Overall what does it say about our society where a “silent majority” feel intimidated to even state actual facts! Let alone debate issues. The actual statistics on so much of this aren’t hard to find at all. The Office of National Statistics publish or host them all. Pay, Domestic Abuse, Educational Disadvantage, Health, it isn’t hard to establish the basics demonstrating the truth of these young men’s perceptions.
It’s so simple it simply must be the case that those who say it’s hard or quote decades old figures must be actively lying to hide the facts. I have seen so many prominent feminists , academics even , over the years repeat things that they must know ,as they say it, that it’s untrue that I have gone well beyond thinking” benign but misguided” to deliberate misandry.
I hope more young people turn their disquiet into inquiry and overcome the thought police to make a genuinely new response to the challenges to us on our small planet. The celebrations of the fall of the Berlin Wall perhaps an appropriate time to feel the last totalitarian ideology ( itself a heresey of the marxism the wall protected) building a wall between the sexes will fall too!
Randy

These boys are pretty smart. Feminism, with its reliance on an imaginary patriarchy and the inherent evil of everything male, is a prejudicial movement that harms them. Gender egalitarians offer what these boys want: a true evidence-based approach to gender equality that includes all genders (male, female, and otherwise), and is for all genders, and that doesn’t promote unrelated ideas like censorship, strict social codes, quotas, etc.
http://JohnAllman.UK John Allman

“When I was asked to write one of the articles for the #100Voices4Men series I was chuffed. Then followed two months of absolute mental blankness. I watched with increasing panic as articles were published, reaching closer and closer to the 100 mark!”

Don’t worry. You managed to get it in in time. It was worth waiting for. You hit the spots. Bravo!
john

The problem with the foolhardy goal of “gender equality” is that men and women are inherently unequal in so many ways. How can the unfairness of biological reality be overcome? It can’t.

If you have the right to life, freedom and property that’s all there is. And the right to property is simply the right to keep and property you’ve acquired either through inheritance or what you’ve earned through your own labor. So there is no oppression, and certainly not in the western world. In fact, women aren’t oppressed in any country in the world since you can only compare like to like. A poor woman is Somalia is no worse off than a poor man in Somalia. History is the same. Was an impoverished, borderline starving woman in the 1200s any more in need than an impoverished, borderline starving man in the 1200s? Of course not, their suffering was the same.

The entire grievance industry is a cash cow industry. When various groups claim victimhood for virtually anything, the state will gladly step in, which allows the state grow with countless new agencies, levy more taxes and enforce that theft of wealth for the greater good of the nation. In the end, the only winner is the state because grievance group “A” will cause grievance groups “B” through “Z” to demand their restitution as well. Three equal pay laws is three equal pay agencies and three overseer agencies, and three enforcer agencies, and courts and lawyers. Billions a year for a problem that doesn’t exist. Every new equality law brings us closer to being economically equal at the very bottom.
- andyrwebman
  
  Interesting you ask “How can the unfairness of biological reality be overcome? It can’t.”. I have a somewhat hypothetical answer for you.
  
  For a while now I’ve been interested in the idea of ex Utero gestation – humans being born in artificial wombs. Of all things to get rid of “biological unfairness” this would be great.
  
  I think it would be popular among both men and women- women to avoid the discomfort and pain and to have more energy after the child was born, men out of both compassion for their women and the slightly less noble desire to have a girl whose figure stays lush for longer.
  
  It’s an extreme and somewhat fanciful answer, but I could imagine both men and women supporting research that led to partial versions along the way to this. It’s the sort of approach co-operative people would take, instead of the antagonistic feminist one.
Lastango

Mr. Fischer writes:
“We will never end sexism and gender inequality without the help of boys and men – this has always been the case and will always be. And the first step is to listen to them without judgement, particularly those who are genuinely concerned and wish to participate.”

That’s a feminist framework, and it leads to co-opting men into the service of feminism. From the perspective of men (presuming it is the author’s intent to capture that), it’s better to state that human rights for men won’t be respected until men are accorded a voice.
HettGutt

5. Men are not a target for “recruitment.” Your entire article is based on the premise that men are a collective group to be political rally crowd filler or “allies,” and that Feminism’s current propaganda strategies are simply alienating us. You are denying men’s agency – our desire to advocate not as a bloc but for ourselves. You don’t care about men’s issues in any sincere degree. The problem is not Feminism’s arguments, or its tactics; it’s Feminism’s ideas.

We don’t want your “gender equality.” We don’t want to become another “grievance group” or “voting bloc.” We simply want you and Government to leave men (and women) alone.
Darren Ball

Duncan,

All that worry for nothing. This article resonates so much with my own feelings and thoughts that I had a visceral connection with it. I felt as if I ingested this rather than read it. Excellent!

I’m encouraged enormously by these young men, but also I worry for them. I’m middle-aged and I’m yet to find a way to broach these issues without being verbally assaulted – imagine trying to navigate this as a teenager? There must be intense pressure on them to pretend that the world is as it is not, for the sake of surviving their youth.

I like to think, however, that this space, and also AllyF’s, are safe places for them to explore these ideas. Hopefully some of those young men will comment on your article.

Best
Trevour Meadow

And so the cause of gender inequality is deprived of its most valuable potential supporters on a grand scale.

I’m sorry, but what has feminism to offer the manual labourers, street sweepers, police officers, building labourers, miners, farmers and fishermen of the future. These young men would be well advised to avoid the author and his weasel words. Apologists apologise. No bother for the tens of thousands of men going through iniquitous divorce. Suicide is one of the leading causes of death for men under 50yrs, and your concerned with how teenagers can be useful to feminism. Dogmatic smugness abides!
- Len Firewood
  
  Yes that was precisely my point as well. The author clearly is siding with victim feminism but it’s that he is not happy with it’s PR. Feminism was and is a massive fraud – end of.
http://redpilluk.co.uk William Collins

So, in summary, the reason why young men are not speaking up about gender issues is exactly the same as for men of all ages – fear of being punished by our feminist totalitarian society. But, on the positive side, these young men did appear to know about many of the men’s rights issues. That is progress, I think.
Phil Cowan

Bravo, Duncan for bringing thse young men into the discussion.
To John, above, who believes that men and women are equally oppressed in every country. If men had their sexual organs removed in adolescence as women have their clitorises removed in some countries maybe his claim would deserve some consideration.
- Chris Smuls
  
  @ Phil You *DO* know male genital mutilation is a long practiced thing yes? I mean, let’s lop off the foreskin of a baby for no real reason. Like bobbing the tail off a dog. It just looks better that way, doesn’t it? I mean it’s not like it’s going to deaden the nerves or anything, or potentially cause more medical issues later on right?
  - Someone
    
    Clitoris removal is not comparable to foreskin removal. Let’s not kid ourselves about that one. Men may achieve orgasm without the excess skin. Now if they were lopping off the heads, that would be in the realm of clitoral removal.
    - Paul Johnson
      
      I hate to break it to you, but even some women with Type IV FGM can still achieve orgasm, and some men who have been circumcised cannot.
      
      Also, there have been a long line of reasons for thousands of years why we circumcise men. In the USA, Dr. Kellogg convinced people it would be a cure for things like quadriplegia and masturbation.
      
      Much of MGM is done to control male sexuality.
      - Someone
        
        The jews started circumcision. The reason other people do it outside of those religious purposes is hygienic.
      - Paul Johnson
        
        Circumcision has been around longer than Jews have, bub. The real reasons people do it outside of religion is because they BELIEVE it is hygienic, but it is not, any more than having your teeth pulled or your hands cut off. The real reason is that the foreskin contains stem cells which are useful for stem cell research and cosmetic products. The foreskin is worth a lot of money.
      - Someone
        
        #conspiracytheories
      - Someone
        
        Most men achieve orgasm through head stimulation, and women through clitoral stimulation. You seem to know nothing about sex.
      - Paul Johnson
        
        Bullshit. I have a penis, and orgasm comes from a composite of whatever stimulation there is. The largest contributor to mine is from the foreskin motility near the base of the penis. But orgasm can be achieved many ways, and even people (men and women) who have had nearly all of their nerve endings removed can still achieve orgasm, albeit a diminished one.
        
        You’re the one who knows jack about sex.
        
        Orgasm isn’t the end-all be-all of sex, or sexual pleasure. The act itself can be quite enjoyable even without orgasm. Less so if there are fewer sending nerve endings.
        
        None of what you said addresses the human rights violation that it is. That part is very black and white. The penis belongs to nobody but the one whose it is, and parents aren’t allowed to make that decision under laws protecting bodily autonomy. You can’t have their ears pierced, and you can get them tattooed, either.
        
        Circumcision isn’t necessary, therefore without a clear indication such cutting is illegal, unless it’s explicitly legalized as an exception to the aforementioned protections. Such an exception is illegal and immoral.
        
        Children are not the property of their parents.
  - Someone
    
    The reasons were hygienic for the secular. To prevent “cheese” from occurring underneath the foreskin. Because apparently thoroughness when cleaning anything at all is a feminine quality.
Nigel

Of course interest in FGM has grown as it has arrived in our society. However it remains ethnographically very rare( fortunately). In fact genital modification was more common , in societies with poor understandings of the reproductive processes. Being rather more “available” the penis in particular had been subject to various culturally inspired modifications. Sub incision, bifurcation and, very widespread, circumcision. Of course castration was a frequently applied as a punishment, a modification for slaves or servants or by some religious groups. Most famously to singers in the 18th Century.
Both historically and ethnographically the logic of these has varied. Most recently circumcision as a preventative for HIV infection in Africa and as a discouragement to masturbation in the USA.
If one were to consider “oppression” to be somehow proven by genital modification one would find that male genitals are far more widely modified to the extent it is almost universal in some societies . I am inclined to the view that this is ignorance.
drex johnson

While I have never thought trying to implement gender equality as being anything other than the same basic folly as trying to feed rabbits and cats the same diet, I can certainly relate to the way the young men feel pushed out and made to feel guilty for “crimes” they have never committed, thought of, or would ever do anyway..

As a not particularly young man back in 1990 or thereabouts, I was driving around the streets of Manchester late one night (or early one morning!) when I saw a street cleaning vehicle going about its business. On the side of it, was a large and starkly printed Logo that read (if I recall the wording correctly) “Male abuse of power is a crime” and the big black Z of “Zero tolerance”.

Immediately, I knew I was a worthless, abusive man and deserved to be targeted in this way.

I felt sick, ashamed to be male.

But then it dawned on me.. Actually, I had no power. So how could I abuse it? Indeed, I had not, and did not wish to abuse it even if I had it via some imaginary means. I had and always would be reasonable and non-violent with women, and indeed everyone.

Then I realised, I was not the sick one.

Whoever was going around sticking those logo’s on council vehicles using tax payers resources was the one REALLY abusing power in order to divide two sexes that are not natural enemies. And there had to be MANY of them. In high places of power.

THAT was when I first realised, mainstream society was funding psychological warfare on men and boys from tax revenues.

I became increasingly less inclined to do anything at all that may support these ideas, and eventually “dropped out” of the labour market completely.

I did not want to work for a society that demonised men like this.

I would, become all they accused me of perhaps. Nothing to lose. ?
- IanC
  
  That’s a nicely put piece, drex. I agree totally with what you (and many of these contributors) say. Can you imagine reversing the gender in the ad and the outcry we’d have from feminists? Even more, I would imagine the ‘council’ would accuse the person trying to publicise like that, as being sexist, misogynist even! It would be deemed as inciting hatred and therefore unfit for a public audience………..but when it’s women who do it (we’ve all been ocnditioned into automatically considering them AS ‘weaker’ in some way and in need of help and protection) it’s fine. The hypocrisy and do8uble standards are fine, because we are blind to them, as feminists have been at pains to make masculinity institutionally frowned upon. No wonder boys aren’t doing as well in education!
http://www.ChristopherAllman.com/ Christopher Allman

Thank you so much for this, it is wonderful! I recently earned an MFA from art school and was bowled over at how institutional feminism has become. If that meant, gender equality, it would be awesome. Instead it means women=innocent victims, men=privleged abusers, which is a profoundly unhealthy worldview and is only dividing ever larger wedges between men and women.
This, coupled with how extreme internet feminism has become (ban men, #killallmen, unfollow a man day, mansplaining, manslamming, manspreading, wut about teh menz, i bathe in male tears ihatemen.org etc)
led to me creating my own site, with the hope of helping develop some understanding and empathy for men and boys, counter to the feminist hate mongering which has become so prevelant.

http://genderallies.org/issues-impacting-men-and-boys/

I sense a shift is beginning to take place. We men have partly been responsible for this, not standing up to feminist lies, sexism and misinformation.
But the time seems to have finally come that men are pushing back, feminism has pushed our backs against the wall and finally, finally we are starting to say ‘enough is enough.’
Robjam01

I am glad to see these young men are able to cut through the bullshit and misandry that’s being thrown at them all the time. Feminism is a female supremacy movement. They throw one hell of a tantrum if women are not prioritised and listened to all the time. God forbid that men want to discuss their own concerns and issues without female dominion – that would just be sexist and mysoginistic. We live in a deeply gynocentric society and feminists have manipulated this to their own advantage. They have attacked men for the way they speak (mansplaining) the way they use their eyeballs (the male gaze) the way they walk ( manslamming) and even the way they sit (manspreading) They constantly shame men for expressing their sexuality (yet when they do it it’s empowering) and mock our suffering (male tears) They accuse men of being sexist even when they are not (benign sexism) Not to mention saying all men are default rapists (teach boys not to rape) The answer is not for men to try to engage in a movement that despises them and treats them like second class citizens at best and vermin scum at worse,but for men to rise up and stamp out this despicabale hate movement against them for good.
Someone

The good guys get punished for the bad guys’ behavior… Just like how MGTOW write off good women for the sake of Feminazis… Ah this world… FULL CIRCLE, we have come. Oprah, time to hand out the unfair-judgement gift bags.

Unfairness for everybody!!!
Someone

Feminists do not only oppress and alienate males, they also oppress and alienate the females that they deem “retrograde/traditional/old-fashioned”. In other words women that are are STILL willing to give men what they want by producing offspring and/or staying home, cooking, cleaning, putting the man of the house and the family first in all things. As long as women like this still exist the Feminists still have things to rant about because it makes them undesirable by comparison. In a world where all women work like men, they would still whine about pay despite them being drawn to incomparable fields. Why are gender-roles constantly under attack? People fear their very nature it would seem.
UltimateXtreme

Bloody hell. I’m an 18 year old computer science student, and always considered to be rather intelligent. The level of irrationality and logical fallacies in some relatively small but vocal communities of the western world makes me reconsider moving to what I once thought were progressive, forward, scientifically-oriented and meritocratic first world countries for fear of being strong-armed by these feminist and/or SJW morons. If this is the product of today’s universities, viz ‘my’ generation of students, I’m not surprised at all about the doubts of the previous generations’ as to the capabilities of the current generation to cope with the challenge of making it in the real world.
andyrwebman

There ought to be another reason added here – it’s too bloody strict!

Let me put things into perspective: there’s a difference between an off the cuff remark and something more persistent.

I like telling bad taste jokes – and I’m sure I’m not the only one, our country’s sense of humour is very dark. But if I at all times I sounded like the contents of a sick joke, you’d think very badly of me.

The same thing is true of what men say to women – or indeed what women say to men : we need to have a certain level of tolerance for that which isn’t all sweetness and light. In all areas – not just gender issues – we need to tolerate a little bit of that which is less than perfectly behaved.

Zero tolerance is the worst form of intolerance possible. It treats anyone who has suffered the slightest slight to their dignity as if they have been dreadfully wounded – which is actually insulting and demeaning to genuine victims.

In the name of free speech, we need to be prepared to tolerate the abhorrent sometimes – at least from a legal point of view. We need to accept that we’ll be offended from time to time. On the other hand, nobody should have to tolerate the offensive ALL of the time. We each deserve the right to privacy and peace and to not be continually harassed by vile people.

That is where I’m at – we need to tolerate the occasional. whilst protecting people from persistent harassment.
Laura Smyth

Women deal with so much worse.
HeyYou

It is sad that their blatant indiscriminate use of psychological warfare to idiotically try and achieve their goals quickly has alienated the very people they should be supporting. How can any sane male support a cause that only offers them the right to be pathetic losers. Sorry, no thank you. I gave up on their cause long ago and decided to support something that actually made me feel good about myself. At least I don’t have to worry that my support of rescuing puppies and kittens will end up getting me hate from all these other idiots.

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